This is bad news for those of you who oppose the expansion of settlements and favor a two-state solution.
The Samaria and Judea (Shai) District Police will move its headquarters to the controversial E-1 area, which links Jerusalem with the West Bank settlement of Ma’aleh Adumim, by the end of this year, regardless of whether or not the United States approves, Public Security Minister Avi Dichter told Haaretz this weekend.
It is feared the police stations is the first step toward resuming work on 3,500 housing units on the plot of land known as E1, located east of Jerusalem in the settlement of Maale Adumim. Work was frozen on E1 three years ago in response to an international outcry and strong US opposition.
The E1 bloc, those who oppose it say, would complete the Jewish encirclement of Arab East Jerusalem and mak a contiguous Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as it’s capital impossible. Israeli rights lawyer Danny Seidemann said last year that building E1 would mean the “death of the two state solution.”
48 responses so far ↓
1 Green // Oct 2, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Finally, some good news on this blog.
Thanks.
2 Pappe // Oct 2, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Indeed, bad news for two state solutions.
Good news for the settlers and for the Palestinians who wish to see a single state with a Palestinian majority.
But to think that one building will stand in the way of peace is ridicules….
If there will ever be willingness on the Palestinian side for real peace by recognizing the right of the Jewish people to an homeland in the middle east I am sure many settlements can be moved and this building will be just one of many that will be destroyed like the Gaza settlement Block….
3 Mike Nargizian // Oct 2, 2007 at 10:51 pm
There are what about 30,000 people living in the town that is called a “settlement”…. and there was noone there prior… And East Jerusalem doesn’t even fall into the same category as any other town or settlement… even back in 67 when the rest of the West Bank was offered… nor in 1948 when Jerusalem was supposed to be independent and then later vote on their status… when over 2/3 of the inhabitants were Jewish…..
So if there is an exclusive tunnel that goes underground for the Palestinians… that’s what wey’re arguing about here… that is what is going to hold up the otherwise pie in the sky “Two State Peace Solution”????
Are you kidding me? In Myanmar or most African countries they’d kill for 1 good meal a day and a house or apt to live in… let alone what life is like in Ramallah… and TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars from the World and No Interest World Bank loans……..
BUT….. if the joooos keep that 1 town in East Jerusalem…. Well that’s a DEAL BREAKER…
LOL….
What a joke…
And fyi, I’m no “religious zionist” by any stretch of the imagination.
Mike
4 Anonymous // Oct 3, 2007 at 1:46 am
Israelis don’t want peace, they want the Palestinians to disappear. The only ones who ever pushed anyone into the sea were the Zionists pushing the Palestinians of Haifa, Jaffa, etc. into the sea. When the Israelis sit their with their nukes, chemical, and biological weapons and complain that the big bad Arabs are going to push them into the sea, they are simply expressing their fears that what they have done to the other side is one day gonna come back and bite them in the butt. Meanwhile, like any addict, they just can’t stop doing what they know is wrong - stealing, stealing, killing, killing, torturing, torturing, ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing. Some addicts at least know what they’re doing, Zionists in Israel and abroad remain staunchly in denial. One day they’ll hit bottom just like supporters of Apartheid did and wake up to realize that one state is not a nightmare, it’s the healing they should have been hoping for all along. God have mercy on the souls of all those who they murder before that day comes.
5 kenny // Oct 3, 2007 at 1:57 am
You sheeny fuck.
6 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 4:41 am
Anonymous continue with slogans, ignoring the simple fact that Israelis are willing for a compromise and Palestinians want to become a majority by returning refugees into Israel.
Palestinians are a majority in Palestine.(which will become a Jewish free country once the settlers would leave)
Palestinians are a majority in Jordan (already a Jewish free country in which selling land to Jews is punishable by death)
With the help of millions of refugees Palestinians want to become a majority in Israel as well.
And there you have it: Two state solutions is Passe’ – make way to the 3 (Palestinian) state solution…..
How to get there: More slogans about “Jews pushing Arabs to the sea after bombing them with chemical and biological weapon – such slogans always worked on the loony left.
7 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 4:48 am
Senators to Rice: Press Arabs on peace
Published: 10/02/2007
A large majority of U.S. senators signed a letter urging Condoleezza Rice to pressure Arab states to the peace table.
The letter, signed by 79 senators and sent Tuesday to the U.S. secretary of state, stresses to the Palestinians the importance of the political, diplomatic and financial backing of the Arab community going into next month’s Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington.
It also asks Rice to insist that participating Arab governments stop their support of terrorism, recognize Israel’s right to exist, end the Arab League economic boycott of Israel, and pressure Hamas to reject terror and recognize Israel.
Sens. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) wrote the letter, which was signed by all six presidential candidates serving in the Senate.
“We are encouraged that you are working hard to advance the cause of peace in the Middle East,” the senators wrote. “The governments of Israel and of the Palestinians are also working as best they can toward that goal. However, without a sincere commitment from our allies in the Middle East to be partners in this effort, peace in the region will remain elusive.”
8 Anonymous // Oct 3, 2007 at 5:11 am
Thank you for proving my point Pappe, you are addicted to your illusions.
9 Mike Nargizian // Oct 3, 2007 at 8:46 am
Anonymous at least have the minimal lazy creativity to make up a name… that way people won’t think you are just a coward who can’t stand behind his name calling, sloganeering, and rhetoric…. How about ANON.
So here I’ll waste 10 minutes of life and reply to your post -
Wow, you really have a pulse on the public in Israel? Did you do your own survey or just perform a Seance last night?
Did they really push them into the sea in 48? They must have been really good swimmers and levitators to end up in Lebanon, the newly named West Bank, Gaza Strip, Syria and Jordan?
It must have been the Israeli Kings, Generals and Dictators that all loudly declared they’d drive the Joos into the Sea?
It must have been Sharon and Barak that started Kindergarten programs teaching Arab kids that Jews are pigs and monkeys and One day we “with blood and fire” will drive all of them into the Sea… From River to Sea……. Did the Jooos also draw all those signs and posters showing pools of blood when a “million martyrs drive all the Joos out of all of Jerusalem????
Yeah, but you know….. those Joos do have a lot of plants in the PA…
Do you have a stuttering problem? or just emotional ones in nature? Maybe you’re confused with Darfur, Myanmar, Kirkuk, or Tibet? with Ramallah and East Jerusalem?
You see there there have actually been mass expulsions, brutal murders, and ethnic cleansing…. without any UN $$ or aid being sent in… without tens of thousands of foreign reporters there (they’d actually get shot there), LET alone tens of billions of EU, US and UN $$ funneled into those areas…. Whereas, the Palestinian population has Quadrupled and then some since 67… it was from 48 to 67 that it was declining…. but I digress to your idiocy…
G-d have mercy on your ignorant patronizing soul…..
10 Shual // Oct 3, 2007 at 9:47 am
“and there was noone there prior” [poor man on the moon]
In germany there is a jewish joke: Was macht ein Jude, wenn er auf eine einsame Insel kommt?
Antwort: Er baut zwei Synagogen. Eine, in die er geht und eine andere, in die er nicht geht.
11 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 11:59 am
“addicted to your illusions”
Yes. I have an illusion that the Arab side - for once - will get off the victim mantle - and start asking itself what the Jewish people have been doing for generations:
“What are WE doing wrong, and how can we improve the ability of having peace”
While Israel has over the past 30 years left more and more occupied territory (kept only the minimum require for current security and is willing to negotiate it for peace) The Arab side have done nothing except demand “the last inch”.
It is really time to understand that the so-called “right of Return” is the biggest block facing the chance for peace. We can start there, give up few more unreasonable demands and end up with a better future for all. But if we leave it to the Arab side – they would just don’t mind having generation and generation of people suffer so that in the end they win it all.
12 Anonymous // Oct 3, 2007 at 12:50 pm
You know, you guys should really try a 12 step program. You’re so deep in denial, it might be your only hope. Here’s one example of your denying the obvious:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/612/_re15.htm
Not mentioned in the caption: hundreds drowned as the Zionists pushed them out at gunpoint. I know, it’s scary for you, criminals always fear that perhaps they will have done unto them what they did to others. That’s why you are denying it so strenuously.
13 Roehan // Oct 3, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Fundementally, Israel by pushing through with this project Pappe will make East Jerusalem as capital to the new palistian state impossible. And the fact that you don’t understand how importent the refugee situation is for the palistians shows you’re lack of empathy to the situation. The palistians will never give up their right of return which is enshrined in UN resolutions for nothing. I am sure there could be a compromise where some palistinans would be able to go back to Israel within a certain span of time at a certain quota and others could be compenstated, others would def just go back to the new palistine. The settlers could live on the land in exchange for equal land of value and or continous compensation for their presence. But as long as israel rejects the palistians fundemental right of return, again enshrined in UN resolutions as well as international law, their will be no peace.
14 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Roehan,
I am glad you have a name.
As for my empathy: My empathy is for all Palestinians and all Israelis – especially those young ones who were born in the last 18 years.
They have never voted for Hamas or for Kach (although Kach is banned in Israel while Hamas is the majority party in Palestine)
So my empathy is for all those 10,000,000 people between the sea and the Jordan River. Let’s me ask you one simple question:
Do all of them, as a group or as individuals, deserve a solution to the middle –east conflict?
Does the rest of the world deserve an end to this conflict ?
If your answer is : No. Than this is the end of discussion.
If your answer is : Yes. Than the next question is: Do you have a solution in whicg everyone of those 10,000,000 get what they deserve and what they want and what they (or you) feel is their right (by God given right, natural right, UN resolution right, natural justice right etc…..
I do not know of any such solution. Therefore the search for “justice” (for me atleast) has ended right there. Now my question is :
Is it “Justice” to those 10,000,000 million people (and the rest of this world) to leave the situation without a solution ????
We already answered that. We KNOW we must have a solution.
If you, or Kach people, or Hamas people continue to focus on “rights” instead of being focused on “Solution” – there will be an endless war – until one side win it al.
If you accept the fact that some rights must be given up for other rights and that monetary compensation can be given to people who give up those demands they call “rights” – I think we have the basis from which to continue our discussion.
Are we in agreement so far on those principals ?
15 Michele Dunne // Oct 3, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Dear Charles: I would like to discuss with you the possibility of your writing for the Arab Reform Bulletin. Please email me so I can have your address and we can discuss.
Best, Michele
16 Roehan // Oct 3, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I think Pappe we are in agreement in more than just principals. If you reread what I wrote you will see that I state some very basic options to make the compromise. On both sides you have maximilist that want all or nothing. But these maximilist make up a very tiny percentage of the overall groups. There was a poll conducted awhile ago where the palistians in the lebanese refugee camps at least declared that a majority of them would rather go live in palistine than israel. So, I think there is room to compromise but Israel must accept the fact that the palistians have a legitimate issue in the refugee situation.
Most, if not all of the principals, could be agreed upon by both sides.
17 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Roehan,
Glad we agree.
Next: Would you agree that any solution must be final and permanent?
Are you aware of Islamic tradition ? Are you aware of the various different types of “peace” which allow one party to break the treaty after some time ? If you are not I suggest you learn the different types of “Hudna” and other words use for peace.
Let me suggest you educate yourself. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qaynuqa
http://www.pmw.org.il/specrep-31.html
Neither are fully accurate but they give you an idea what I am after: An agreement that would minimize the ability of any side to re-open it and that any attempt to re-open the conflict will receive the maximum world condemnation.
I don’t want Religious settlers coming and telling the world that the Talmud allowes them yet again to settle in Palestine after the peace was signed.
Are you familiar with the idiom that starts with ” Khaibar-khaiba ya Yahud….” – Do you understand it’s historic roots. Are you familiar with certain religious laws what should a Muslim do with Jews ? After all – no one can erase the words of God.
I suggest you google ” Khudaibiya agreement” and see for yourself what Arafat said about “Peace” with the Zionist enemy.
After you understand all those let’s talk about what “rights” must be given up in the most final way possible in order to get peace…. Let me give you a hint:
The door must not be left open for any territorial demand neither for sovereignty nor for the right to settle.
18 Roehan // Oct 3, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Pappe,
What would your final peace look like? What is your proposal? Who gets what? What happens to the refugees? Let’s dispense with the generalities and speak specifics.
19 Q // Oct 3, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Roehan,
it make more sense to agree on the general framework before specifics. So the direction Pappe is going makes sense. What is your view on the general ideas he suggested ?
20 Mike Nargizian // Oct 3, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Oh the floodgates have opened….
Roehan or Anon or whatever your name is today I’ll reply later…
But it’s almost funny when you say this -
I’m guessing you are from the Arab Middle East where evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvverrrrrrrrrrrrryone who someone opposes is instantly called a “criminal”……….
“You are a criminal!!” LOL…… that is some funny sh**…
Mike
21 Pappe // Oct 3, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Roehan/Anony Mous
You are trying to drag me to specifics in order to attempt what you failed to do under your previous nick-name: You want to discredit me. Even under an internet handle you have a problem to commit to a simple idea:
Like Palestinians – the Jewish people have a right to a home land in the Middle East.
Please commit to this idea at your earliest convince so that we can continue our discussion.
22 roehan // Oct 4, 2007 at 2:51 am
Pappe
First off, I am not the same guy who was posting under anon.
Second, I never said the Jewish nation didn’t have a right to a homeland. Don’t assume anything.
Q, specifics are importent cause the devil is always in the details.
So let’s discuss this. As you can see from my prior posts I think compromise is the only way forward.
It seems Mike thinks that the palistinians should give up both East Jerusalem and their right of return for absolutely nothing in return. That doesn’t sound like compromise to me. So, I am throwing it out there now. What should this compromise look like. It doesn’t have to be too specific like town names and specific settlements but let’s forge forward. In your best opinions what should a final peace look like?
23 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 4:05 am
It seems Mike thinks that the palistinians should give up both East Jerusalem and their right of return for absolutely nothing in return. That doesn’t sound like compromise to me. So, I am throwing it out there now. What should this compromise look like. It doesn’t have to be too specific like town names and specific settlements but let’s forge forward. In your best opinions what should a final peace look like?
No, I didn’t say that. However, Mael Edumin (spelling?) has over 30,000 people living there… prior NObody lived there, Israel built it.
Further, the Temple Mount is in East Jerusalem…
Do you think the Jews should “admit” that no Temple or Biblical history ever stood there? LOL… is that part of the Big Brother Compromise?
Do you think it’s ok that the PLO and Hamas are digging up the entire hill under the bullshit pretext of building MORE underground mosques…. REFUSING any Archeological Supervision (If you are caught with a camera while on the Mount they’ll destroy it!!) and dumping THOUSANDS of years of history in the dump?
Jerusalem IS the holiest place on earth to Jews… PERIOD… the Arabs had East Jerusalem from 48-67 do you know how many Arab dignitaries visited it?????????? HOW ABOUT –O–… And the condidition of the city was a dump….
But now that the Jooos have it it’s suddenly valuble again? Even though Arabs not only get plenty of permits to build and live… but they squat in thousands of places and build where they have no permit… hardly how it’s displayed to the foreign (always eager to blast Israel) media….
So if the West Bank is not 100% contiguous but has a system of underground uncontrolled tunnels… because if I’m the leader of Israel I AM NOT evacuating and forcing 30,000 Jews out of a town they built and lived in for decades… then that’s the DEAL BREAKER?
Are you kidding me?
Let’s take past examples as a precursor shall we?
Jewish/Christian Israeli neighborhoods in Southern Jerusalem were extremely friendly with the Arab neighborhoods of Beit Jalla and Bethlehem prior to 2000…. especially prior to 1993 Oslo…. kids would walk to each other’s houses etc.. and play together….
WHAT HAPPENED?
The Mafia Gang (ie… Criminals used in proper context) PLO and the Muslims came into these what used to be Christian neighborhoods and set up TERROR SHOP 101…. to shoot at people from churches and hospitals into Israeli neighborhoods…. until Israel had to retaliate… and ruined the entire formerly peaceful co-existence…. DO YOU EVER READ ABOUT OR SEE THIS ON NATIONAL MEDIA? NO… if any Palestinian Christian was stupid enough to say this the Mafia thugs from Al Asqua, who have been notorious for molesting, raping, robbing, taking graft and “protection” money from Palestinian Christian girls and businesses there… will pay you a visit the next night and take care of you… BUT YOU DON’T READ ABOUT THAT….
Instead all we hear about is people like ANON who sit there and fret for the “poor misguided Jooos in Israel and prays for their souls….” lol…
The entire pre-text of the conversation and argument is just complete noise and BS…
The conflict is NOT ABOUT a city in Eastern Jerusalem or Underground Tunnels, or Billions of UN,EU and US $$’s…. its ONLY about NO acceptance of a Jewish existence and state… PERIOD…
Charles, can rail about how I am a “s0-called” blind Zionist who has no grasp of the grey areas etc… etc… all he wants… but if you offered the Kurds tomorrow partial autonomy in Kirkuk, which was BLATANTLY stolen from them by Saddam and the Sunnis… and a Quasi State in the current borders of Kurdistan… and not 1 $$ in foreign aid… they’d be dancing in the Streets tomorrow and for years!!
You wanna compare the number of expat Kurds and total population of Kurds to the Palestinians… and then compare history in an area? You’ll lose that conversation in 2 seconds…
So please don’t patronize me.
Mike
24 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 4:06 am
No, I didn’t say that. However, Mael Edumin (spelling?) has over 30,000 people living there… prior NObody lived there, Israel built it.
Further, the Temple Mount is in East Jerusalem…
Do you think the Jews should “admit” that no Temple or Biblical history ever stood there? LOL… is that part of the Big Brother Compromise?
Do you think it’s ok that the PLO and Hamas are digging up the entire hill under the bullshit pretext of building MORE underground mosques…. REFUSING any Archeological Supervision (If you are caught with a camera while on the Mount they’ll destroy it!!) and dumping THOUSANDS of years of history in the dump?
Jerusalem IS the holiest place on earth to Jews… PERIOD… the Arabs had East Jerusalem from 48-67 do you know how many Arab dignitaries visited it?????????? HOW ABOUT –O–… And the condidition of the city was a dump….
But now that the Jooos have it it’s suddenly valuble again? Even though Arabs not only get plenty of permits to build and live… but they squat in thousands of places and build where they have no permit… hardly how it’s displayed to the foreign (always eager to blast Israel) media….
So if the West Bank is not 100% contiguous but has a system of underground uncontrolled tunnels… because if I’m the leader of Israel I AM NOT evacuating and forcing 30,000 Jews out of a town they built and lived in for decades… then that’s the DEAL BREAKER?
Are you kidding me?
Let’s take past examples as a precursor shall we?
Jewish/Christian Israeli neighborhoods in Southern Jerusalem were extremely friendly with the Arab neighborhoods of Beit Jalla and Bethlehem prior to 2000…. especially prior to 1993 Oslo…. kids would walk to each other’s houses etc.. and play together….
WHAT HAPPENED?
The Mafia Gang (ie… Criminals used in proper context) PLO and the Muslims came into these what used to be Christian neighborhoods and set up TERROR SHOP 101…. to shoot at people from churches and hospitals into Israeli neighborhoods…. until Israel had to retaliate… and ruined the entire formerly peaceful co-existence…. DO YOU EVER READ ABOUT OR SEE THIS ON NATIONAL MEDIA? NO… if any Palestinian Christian was stupid enough to say this the Mafia thugs from Al Asqua, who have been notorious for molesting, raping, robbing, taking graft and “protection” money from Palestinian Christian girls and businesses there… will pay you a visit the next night and take care of you… BUT YOU DON’T READ ABOUT THAT….
Instead all we hear about is people like ANON who sit there and fret for the “poor misguided Jooos in Israel and prays for their souls….” lol…
The entire pre-text of the conversation and argument is just complete noise and BS…
The conflict is NOT ABOUT a city in Eastern Jerusalem or Underground Tunnels, or Billions of UN,EU and US $$’s…. its ONLY about NO acceptance of a Jewish existence and state… PERIOD…
Charles, can rail about how I am a “s0-called” blind Zionist who has no grasp of the grey areas etc… etc… all he wants… but if you offered the Kurds tomorrow partial autonomy in Kirkuk, which was BLATANTLY stolen from them by Saddam and the Sunnis… and a Quasi State in the current borders of Kurdistan… and not 1 $$ in foreign aid… they’d be dancing in the Streets tomorrow and for years!!
You wanna compare the number of expat Kurds and total population of Kurds to the Palestinians… and then compare history in an area? You’ll lose that conversation in 2 seconds…
So please don’t patronize me.
Mike
25 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:06 am
Yeah, and what is your point Anon you criminal criminal!!!!@#@!# lol…
YOUR POINT IS WHAT -
Some portion of the Arabs that fled were in part pushed out of towns by the Israelis and the Army? TRUE… Of course the Arab world says EVERY SINGLE Arab that fled was due to the IDF, Hagannah…. of course that is typical Arab history bullshit which is kind or iornic… because while you sit there and patronize me and call me names… you might look up Arab history as propogandized by their “historians”… on Egyptian State Television… you know -
1) Jooooos control the world and the world media
2) Arabs are honorable while Jooos are filthy thieves and criminal liars…. (talk about projection lol!!!)
3) Every single Arab that left Palestine was forced out… (LMAO!)
4) Kurdistan is of course the Arab Sunnis property especially the oil wells in Kirkud and Mosul
5) The “misunderstanding” in Darfur is simply something the Muslims need to “work out” for themselves… and calls for UN Troops is a Jooo Western Imperialist Scheme… to “take our land”…
YOU KNOW REAL DEEP INTELLIGENT STUFF….
BOTTOM LINE -
The Arabs intended FULLY to drive out all the Jooos. and…….. FULLY EXPECTED TO….. so that the Hagannah actually did the same to some of the Arabs that fled in a War for their existence is evidence of what? Arab innocence?
SECOND -
There are over 3 million Sephardic, Mizrahi and African Jews that are citizens of Israel… so you can call that an exchange… in my book…. PERIOD…..
THIRD -
Israel won the war, the Arab world chose to lock up the Palestinians in dumps, deny them jobs, citizenship and dignity….. bcs they truly don’t give a shit about them…… that’s called SICKNESS….
They aren’t coming “back” to Israel…
JUST LIKE I am not going back to Poland to take my grandfather’s land… or the Germans aren’t going back to Sudentland to take back their land… IT’S OVER……
But if the Arab world wants to casue a World War over it…. then bring it on…
If not then move on with your lives… Israel is the size of a pea in a huge Arab Middle East… where there “isn’t any room for Palestinians” LMAO!! talk about projection….
Israel’s not going anywhere… and I ain’t no Zionists, nor is my brothers or cousins or friends… but I’ll tell you 1 thing if the Arabs murders many Jews in Israel I’ll sign up for the IDF tomorrow and the Arab world will create Millions of Zionists of formerly middle of the road Americans tomorrow……
Take care.
Mike
26 Compulsive Reader // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:06 am
Mike - Kurdistan wasn’t “stolen” by Saddam, but was deliberately ignored due to the Kurds nomadic tendencies and disunity by the French/British mandate. It was relatively autonomous under the Sunni Ottomans, much like Palestine. Secondly, to deny the religious importance of Jerusalem to Muslims, the city in which Mohammad was given a tour of Heaven and Hell by Gabriel, the Isra and Miraj, is like telling a Jew that Hebron is only important for its grapes. Third, re: the PLO, George Habash, Naif Hawatmeh? Christians. “As the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, the Reverend Riah Abu al-Assal has explained, “The Arab Palestinian Christians are part and parcel of the Arab Palestinian nation. We have the same history, the same culture, the same habits and the same hopes.” But I hate to patronize you with facts…
27 Compulsive Reader // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:16 am
Pardon me, I misread your talk about Kurdistan and Kirkuk and the Al-Anfal Campaign.
28 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:19 am
Mike - Kurdistan wasn’t “stolen” by Saddam, but was deliberately ignored due to the Kurds nomadic tendencies and disunity by the French/British mandate.
Wait, you’re kidding right?
So Saddam didn’t force out tens of thousands of Kurds from their homes in Kurdistan and replace them with Arab Sunnis from his tribes and allies? If you don’t know that then you need to take a history lesson…..
So the Kurds want their houses back their now bcs they’re on psychotropic hallucinogens….
I didn’t deny anything… though several Arab leaders have mocked it’s “importance” themselves… the fact is the city is more important to Jews and Christians… but since I could give a crap about “religion” I’d rather have Jews running the city than the PLO, or any Arab gov’t any day…. in an imperfect world… which the Middle East surely is… Israeli control of anything as far as fair play is the Garden of Eden compared to Arab control and fair play…..
And btw, the ascending to Heaven is based on ascending from the “distant mosque” which many historians believe wasn’t in Jeruslamem as they didn’t control it until after his death… and actually Medina… it DOES NOT say Jerusalem in the Koran…
And it’s the Arab World, today, tomorrow and every day going forward that denies ANY Jewish existence or history there…. and the fact that Westerners “poo poo” this brainwashing and hate teaching is ASTOUNDING considering how succesful it was in Nazi Germany….
29 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:28 am
SORRY there is no “pre-view” here….
LOL…. you must be kidding me right? Who’s talking about under the Turks… how about in the last 20 years… under Saddam…. forget about how the Turks and then British decided Kurdistan “never” existed….
So Saddam didn’t force out tens of thousands of Kurds from their homes in Kurdistan and replace them with Arab Sunnis from his tribes and allies? If you don’t know that then you need to take a history lesson…..
The Kurds want their houses back now and are taking them back…. are doing so bcs a) they’re on psychotropic hallucinogens or b) they’re “criminals”…
I didn’t deny anything… though several Arab leaders have mocked the sudde “importance” fo these specific mosques versus others in the Arab world………
However, the fact is the city is more important to Jews and Christians… but since I could give a crap about “religion” I’d rather have Jews running the city than the PLO, or any Arab gov’t any day…. in an imperfect world… which the Middle East surely is… Israeli control of anything as far as fair play is the Garden of Eden compared to Arab control and fair play…..
And just fyi, the ascending to Heaven Dream in the Koran is based on ascending from the “distant mosque” (Al Asqua) which many historians believe wasn’t in Jeruslamem as they didn’t control it until after his death… and actually Medina… it DOES NOT say Jerusalem in the Koran… The Syrian tribes supposedly may have built it later on and used the at that point unimportant Sura to compete with the Arab tribes for importance.
And it’s the Arab World, today, tomorrow and every day going forward that denies ANY Jewish existence or history there…. and the fact that Westerners “poo poo” this brainwashing and hate teaching is ASTOUNDING considering how succesful it was in Nazi Germany….
Right, he’s a politican making a public statement…. what he says in public and behind closed doors are 2 different things… Further, I’m talking about facts on the ground which regular people, away from cameras and foreign media were talking with their feet… ie… being pushed out by the Muslims from Bethlehem and Beit Jalla…
Plus, the first thing the PLO did was replace the Christian leaders there and put in their stooges after Oslo… anyone who didn’t follow along was TAKEN CARE OF…….
And since you didn’t reply to my facts about how the Al Asqua thugs have run a Mafia enterprise in Bethlehem and Beit Jalla I’ll take you concede that….
Mike
30 Pappe // Oct 4, 2007 at 5:38 am
OK, some specific for you:
* Israel will withdraw to the lines based the border as of June 4, 1967
* The Palestinians will establish a state on 100 percent of the territory that Israel conquered in the 1967 Six-Day War. To reduce the number of settlers and Palestinians who will have to leave their homes, “border modifications” may be introduced, “based on an equitable and agreed-upon territorial exchange” at a ratio of 1:1.
* The Palestinians will forgo their demand to realize the right of return, with the refugees making do with financial compensation and the opportunity to reside in the state of Palestine.
* The Palestinian state will be demilitarized.
* As for Jerusalem, it will be “an open city, the capital of two states,” with the Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian sovereignty and the Jewish neighborhoods under Israeli sovereignty. “Neither side will exercise sovereignty over the holy places.” The arrangement will be that Palestine “will be designated Guardian of Haram al-Sharif [the
Temple Mount] for the benefit of Muslims. Israel will be the Guardian of the Western Wall for the benefit of the Jewish people.”
* Both sides will agree that “the full implementation of these principles” will mark the end of the conflict.
* Both sides will agree that Israel is the representative of the Jewish people and Palestine is the representative of the Palestinian people.
* Both sides agree that Palestine (or Palestine+ a mandate from all mulsim.Arab countries) is the respresentative and guardian of all muslim claims to any area covered by the two states.
* Israel, on behalf of the Jewish people for ever withdraw any claim to any area in Palestine – this without earsing years of Jewish history in the area. Palestinians recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people. For ever to remain a land not rulled by Mulsims or anyone other than the Jewish people.
Palestine, on behalf of palestinian people and the Arab Ummah, withdraw any claim to any area in israel – this without earsing years of palestinian/Arab/Muslim or others histort in this area.
• A limited and equal number of Israelis/Jews who would want that will be allowed to remain In Palestine and accept Palestinian citizenship.
• An equal number of Palestinians/Arabs will be allowed to remain in Israel and receive Israeli citizenship.
All others, including those called “israeli Arabs” and “Settlers” will have to migrate to their respective countries (Jews to israel Palestinans to Palestine) so that any future friction of a demographic threat will be minimize for the Future. Anyone who have to move will receive full financial compensation for property left behind. (this is not bad since the value of land in israel is higher so Palestinians who now reside in Israel could get much more In Palestine for the land they leave behind in Israel.
31 Shual // Oct 4, 2007 at 6:01 am
Come on, Mike Nargizian!
Har Homa, Jabal Abu Gneim, Golan-Law, Ramat, Gilo, Haram al-Sharif, Ras al-Amud, “esplanade-tunnel”, Deputy Defense Ministers with plans: “past experience has proven that, in order to defend Jerusalem, one must have a strip of defense surrounding it in the north, south, east and west. The consolidation of the existing territorial continuity through expansion of settlements as well as construction of roads, tunnels and bridges and further land acquisition, would be presented in the future negotiations as a geographic fact.”
I can show you thousands of nice extreme friendly things before 2000 and the only thing what you will hear from palestinian christians is like Mitri Raheb said: “It appears that we are needed most in times like these.”. No matter if the wave of the revolution is blue or green, jewish, or national, Al-Aqsa or Yesha, IDF or Fatah.
And if you don’t mind, stop using the christians case for your anormal behaviour. Or we have to talk about South-Lebanon were Hezbollah occupied Christian villages and your “friendly” IDF did not care as they dropped “freindly” bombs on them.
32 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 6:25 am
LOL.. so in South Lebanon…. Hezbollah occupied Christian towns and fired rockets purposefully from the Christian towns into Israel then Israel tried to take out the areas where the rockets came from… BOY DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR? Beit Jalla, Bethlehem?
And bcs the IDF supposedly dropped bombs on Christian towns in South Lebanon, taking your word for it, than that is proof of what?
How the IDF likes to take random bomb practice… lol….
I’m sure the Lebanese Christians actually love Hezbollah occupying their towns and shooting missiles from them…. it’s just the IDF they soley hate…. lol…
Mike
33 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 6:29 am
Pappe, keep dreaming… the elephant in the room is that the area is not suffiicient for 2 states and you can’t extricate Arab from Jew like in the case of Cyprus. And even if you magically could make that work… the Arab world will never allow it to work… Dictatorships need no end to the conflict without it ever getting too hot as to cause their regimes to beome seriously challenged… that’s the game..
1 more thing -
The idea that Syria gives a crap about the Golan versus Lebanon is so laughable… Syria doesn’t want it back… they want to portray like they do for public machismo and face…. they only care about the Billions of Graft coming in from Lebanon that props up their regime’s existence…
If Syria is actually stupid enough to attack Israel.. it’s only because they have the Iranians propping it up and backing them… and will only attack enough to avoid a serious reprisal… they got a lot more important business to attend to - like murdering Opposition Leaders in the Lebanese Parliament.
34 Pappe // Oct 4, 2007 at 11:13 am
I am glad to see that my views are attacked by the pro-settlers and the pro-Palestinians.
As I have said several times both of those groups prefer an endless war - with hope of “winner takes all” to a compromise-based peace. (a realistic compromise - not one which include notions like having Israel a country with Large Palestinian population)
So far, the settlers are a minority group in Israel and I hope that one day Palestinian society will grow-up the way Israeli society did over the last 30 years.
35 Shual // Oct 4, 2007 at 11:26 am
Mike Nargizian,
your pleasure about “war-elements” is evidence of your incapacity. I stronlgy oppose things that happend in Beit Jala or Bethlehem, but I strongly oppose the “randomized embedding of them into paranoid constructs”, like yours: The IDF-siege of christian towns is an effect of the Al-Aqsa-siege of christian towns. I am sorry, I understand that such amateurish constructs + hysterical performance impress amateurish people, but I think you used the wrong place to act as the great denfender of near-east-christianity.
I condemn Michel Sabbahs “Latin-Salon-Fatahism”, or Bisharas “Anti-Zionism”, and there are enough political reasons why the christian backing of the PLO-nationalism was a wrong decision. But your unsound statements only want to instrumentalize the christian case in order to whitewash the Israelis violation of international law. Spectacular unspectacular.
PS: “replace the Christian leaders there and put in their stooges after Oslo”. Stooges, nice. Mafia and stooges and “behind closed doors they talk different”-blabla. You are talking about Salah Al Ta’mari? And I can tell you exactly why you don’t like him.
36 Roehan // Oct 4, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Pappe,
I think you have some good points there.
I do think the palistinians should be given a choice as to what they would like in case of their right of return. It shouldn’t be too hard to develop a system where those who are willing to give up that right for compensation and i think there could be some mathmatical ratio where if those who didnt want to give up their right of return didnt want to they could return to israel over a certain amount of years be it 1000 palistians over 25 years or something similar to that where the jewish character of israel wouldnt be tainted.
Who controls the borders? Will palestine control its own airspace, borders and waters?
Mike,
Under Saddam Kurds were replaced in oil rich kirkurk in some sizable numbers that is true but the process has reversed itself since the fall of saddams regime and kurds are activly attaking and threating with violence the sunni arabs of the city. By the way kirkurk has a sizable turkomen population so they are also being harrased by the kurdish terrorists.
and Jerusalem is very importent to Muslims its the third holiest city in all of Islam. So you can’t even deny that fact.
Kurds already have a quasi-state in the region of northern iraq and want more in iran, turkey and syria.
37 Pappe // Oct 4, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Roehan,
On the individual level (not the national level): each refugee must receive full compensation for his property and suffering.
On the national level: Not even a single Palestinian. Simply because there is no ability on Israel part to accept this as “right”. It must be stated as a demand that is given up and that the establishment of a Palestinian state ends that demand. We can not leave the door open for future claims. Any recognition that there is such “right” is negating the ability to end the conflict in a final way.
As for airspace etc..: Tough question. Can Palestinian feel safe if they have no air force ? I think they can. Who would they want to use their air-force aginmst if they have one. Do they ever plan to be a match for IAF ? that cost too much for a tiny poor nation.
Water: shred aquifer means water agreements are need – see this:
http://www.google.co.il/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=RNWE%2CRNWE%3A2005-06%2CRNWE%3Aen&q=shared+aquifer++treaty&meta=
http://works.bepress.com/joseph_w_dellapenna/81/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2501/is_2_22/ai_65653663/pg_21
btw, anyone who understand the concept of Aquifer knows that the argument that Israel build the wall route “to steal water” is nonsense the aquifer stretches on both sides of the wall
38 tsedek // Oct 4, 2007 at 3:49 pm
fine conflictblotter. what can be build can be broken. pity they go this far, but that’s only because they can NOW. no bricks are going to stop ideologies.
39 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Thanks for your kind sentiments… lol
The word you’re looking for is immature -
Well, if there weren’t gun fire at Southern Jerusalem and smuggling in of Suicide Bombers from those Christian towns (former at this point) then there would be no need for an IDF siege…. sure there are conflicts with those towns now severely exacerbated by the PLO/Al Asqua militarization of them.
Like they had any choice after 1993? And how different would Bethlehem and Beit Jalla be today if Israel had retained control of those towns under Oslo, so the thugs from the PLO couldn’t cynically use those towns?
NOPE not at all. But, the world doesn’t have a clue about the real brutal culprit in those towns they believe the incessant Arabist crap they read in the Guardian and believe that all of the woes in those towns is due to the BIG BAD ISREALIS…. when it’s the desired cynical result of the PLO! Then you get clueless patronizers like ANON making their moronic statements.
Please tell me - cause I don’t know myself.
40 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 10:19 pm
TO ROEHAN
Pappe’s plan had no refugees going to Israel and had Israeli Arabs moving to Palestine while Jewish “settlers’ move to Israel while both being financially comped as well as Refugees from 48 being comped… (MEastern Jewish Refugees being comped is of course off the table)
He is advocating a separation like in Cyprus so neither’s character - Jewish - Muslim etc.. is jeopardized… Of course that would never happen, nor would any Israeli Arabs agree to move to a Hamas/PLO corrupt broke state…. except the poor given financial compensation perhaps?
Interesting the Kurds are terrorists? But the Palestinians are not “terrorists”? It’s true the Kurds are trying to take back their houses from 20 years ago in a city which has always been part of Kurdistan… from Biblical Times… But it is true there have been numerous reports of them shitting on other minorities in the city such as Turkomen.
I didn’t deny it… the only SERIAL DENYING is from the Muslim world… which is very ironic considering, as I mentioned, the city is the HOLIEST city in the world to Jews….. and at best 3rd holiest to Muslims… not that you’d know that in 1920 or in 1960… considering the way it was treated by the Muslim world… or the declining populations there….
41 Mike Nargizian // Oct 4, 2007 at 10:28 pm
IMAGINE THEIR CHUTZPAH!! lol…. they want “more”??
I mean considering Kurdistan was sliced up and given to Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq….. by the Brits…
You see when the Arab world talks ENDLESSLY about Western Imperialism they don’t include (FOR GOOD REASON) the biggest ROBBERY OF ALL… the robbery of the Kurds……
The Kurds, Jews, Armenians, Turkomen, Assyrians have lived in Babylonia THOUSANDS of years - and at least 2000 years before any Arabs arrived.
The Kurds have their own ancient language, Kurdish, are native to that region still today - and own religion - though most are Muslims today.
So when you say “they want more” - Kurdistan was sliced up and given to those above mentioned countries… which all regularly violate the civil rights of the Kurds living there.
Sure, the PKK is a terrorist organization - but that doesn’t even mention the untold barely detailed numerous events of murder, oppression, etc… that Kurds are subjected to in those Dictatorships….
Listen, perhaps you should suck down some more Arabist Kool Aid….
Mike
42 roehan // Oct 5, 2007 at 1:43 am
Mike,
So what exactly would your solution to this mess be?
43 roehan // Oct 5, 2007 at 1:49 am
oh and mike the settlers that were removed from GAZA were compensated. So yea the jewish settlers would be compensated too in the whole process.
44 Mike Nargizian // Oct 5, 2007 at 3:25 am
ROEHAN -
Yes, in Pappe’s plan the ’settlers’ leaving a nascent “Palestinian” state would be comped as well as Israeli Arabs relocating to that same state.
He then says that 48 Arab refugees would be comped as well… Good luck on figuring out who’s a refugee and who isn’t btw…
What I said was - that the MEastern and African Jews that were kicked out in similar numbers from countries like Syria, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, Jordan, the “s0-called” West Bank etc…. aren’t to receive any compensation though…. WHY? bcs, you see Israel took them in and they have better lives now, not that they weren’t robbed of all their assets, family heirlooms, land etc….
SOLUTION -
There is no solution, this is a slow moving Greek tragedy.
Israel and “Palestine” can’t be separated… you got Gaza on the bottom and the West Bank which has virtually no economy outside of doing business with and working in Israel.
Israeli Arabs would never agree to move to a nascent corrupt PLO/Hamas Mafia terrorist state.
The Arab world has been programmed for decades and now the satellite stations, that the Jewish state does not exist, the Jooos have no and don’t deserve any dignity, and have no history there etc… Plus, all these dictatorships rely on demonizing Israel as their main prop up for stoking “nationalism” etc… so there is something “more pressing” to the Arab mind than the corrupt, police state they actually live in.
If you had g-d pick up Israel and turn it into an island in the Pacific, the Middle East would be as bad if not worse tomorrow… the conflict there is just the diversion…. there is a smolering furnace building there for decades….
The problem througout the MEast is exemplified perfectly in Egypt.
A phony hated selfish dictator…. who props up the Muslim Brotherhood with 1 hand and then uses them as a wedge to keep the 2 Billion from DC coming… If they held any type of fair election the Muslim Brotherhood would win a trounce tomorrow… Mubarrek’s party would finish a distant 2nd… and the forward thinking Intelligent”Liberals” would get maybe 3-5% of the seats in Parliament…
So wey’re looking at Arab States all trying to go nucleur that will force us to continue to prop up joke Dictatorships hated by their people who in turn hate us… or else wey’re looking at Fundamentatlists Shiites in Iran, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia all having Nukes…What does that spell out for you?
KURDISTAN -
Turkey won’t give up eastern Turkey and the Turkish Army there is the West’s best friend in the Muslim world… though the Islamists are taking over there it looks slowly but surely as well…
We could care less about Syria and could use that as a threat to them….
Iran is made up of states and multi ethnicities crammed together just like Iraq and Saudi Arabia…. Ironically Saudi Arabia and Iran have more ethnicities and potential states than Iraq… which basically has 3 main ones…
The Kurds should get some $$ sharing agreement with the Oil Wells in Kirkuk and Mosul… the Shiites will back them on that bcs both wouldn’t mind flushing down the toilet the Sunnis….
The only way to reach the minds of Arabs and Persians is through the media and wey’re getting crushed on that front…. Al Jazeera, Abu Dhabi etc… are basically Muslim Brotherhood mouthpieces…
Sometimes there isn’t a solution, just your next move… always looking a few ahead and realizing that this is likely a train that’s headed slowly towards big trouble… that’s why it’s sad to listen to idiots talk about how Iran getting a Nucleur weapon is no big deal due to the Soviet US cold War example…. even if Iran didn’t use theirs…. and they’re NOT the Soviet Union…. the domino effect in the region of them getting 1 would be catastrophic….
Mike
45 Shual // Oct 5, 2007 at 5:35 am
Mike Nargizian,
not really better. First you can forget about your “need for an IDF siege”-theory. I showed you already the core of the “belt”-strategy [in order to defend Jerusalem, one must have a strip of defense surrounding] + a wall to fence the geo-fact. Now after 7 years we have to wonder why the great army of Israel still has the “need” for more. Ah, yes, “humanitarian” raids, I forgot. No big bombs, but small incursions. Or anti-terrorist-actions like in the case of the Don Boscos. The US financed a street to their monastery [260 000US$] and after the work was completed anti-terror-units destroyed the terror-street, cause it was danger for the country of Israel. And your next fault is that you miss the opportunity to tell us about the unholy alliance of “Preventive Service” and “IDF”. They are figthing each other or Hamasniks, but the christians move away cause … there are no jobs. You deflect the problems into your lousy pattern. Oh, I can tell you who has the jobs: Yitzhak Aharonovitch needs to boost HIS tourism-industry and won the assistance of the Vatican. With an advertising campaign payed by the Vatican young catholics [a large market] should be attracted to visit Israel [including one-day-stop at Bethlehem]. Consume is Israel - the natives are allowed to wave. And this is the answer for your question what place Bethlehem and Beit Jala have in Israelis visions. And facinating is the thougth of “PLOs cynical use” of the town. The yearly million visitors is still there, but somebody impeded them, but now in 2007, wall, belt and siege are in their final state of land-deprivation and now… what can you do without room, without legislation, without money, without the possibility to deal with other countries.
“Guardian! Bad Israelis! Arab crap!” An Arab, 2004: “As the noose of the occupation and borders tightened, and with the building of the Separation Wall, which is swallowing more of Bethlehem’s territory, we have watched with rising concern the impoverishment of large sections of the population, the increase in emigration, the erosion of civic awareness and deeper entrenchment in parochial groupings.”
“Please tell me - cause I don’t know myself.” Because he is a politician and you a spitfire. We can not talk about problems of city councils or their strategies against it, cause you think “arabs” are a dumb mass of stupid people. Another name that you don’t know? Khouloud Daibes. Former member in the unity government with HAMAS! And I can tell you exactly why you don’t like her.
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