I RECENTLY returned from Gaza where I met with deposed Hamas foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar. Our hour long conversation produced few bomb shells, but was an interesting window on the man pegged as a leading Hamas hardliner in the Gaza Strip.
“I am the committed man to our principles. I address our attitudes very clearly,” he said.
I met him in his third floor office in Gaza City’s foreign ministry building. The building was bombed at least twice during the Israeli offensive against Gaza in the wake of the Gilad Shalit kidnapping last summer. Crude cinderblocks have patched up a 10-foot by 10-foot bomb hole in the wall just outside Zahar’s office.
GAZA JOKES
A soft spoken, clean cut Executive Force gunman stood guard in the hall. While we waited for Zahar he told us the latest Hamas jokes. “Ever since Hamas took power in Gaza, the ATMs distribute only dates and figs,” one joke he had heard went. Another joke about Palestinian businessmen struggling to make ends meet involves a savvy Gaza merchant who bought 1,000 bras from an Israeli clothing company, cut them in half, and sold them back to the Israeli company as 2,000 yarmulkes for a healthy profit.
The foreign ministry building was largely deserted as many of the employees stopped showing up to work at Ramallah’s orders after the Hamas takeover in June. Zahar was wearing ankle high black leather boots, and a grey shirt-pant suit, the kind I always associate with old-school Egyptian civil servants.
“Life is much better in Gaza than before,” he said. “We have achieved full security.”
He promised courts, and a fully functioning justice system would be up and running in Gaza within weeks.
HAMAS RULE TURNS UGLY
Of course, that security is coming at a cost. In the past couple of weeks, dozens of suspected dissidents, Fatah and otherwise, have been rounded across Gaza. They have been detained for anywhere between a few hours to a few days, and in some case, even longer. In Beit Hanoun I met half a dozen people from Fatah and the PFLP who had visible signs of rough treatment at Hamas hands.
Two brothers, with legs bruised so bad they could barely walk, said they had been beaten for hours while in Hamas custody. Their youngest brother had 15 stitches in the back of his head, because he had been the wedding photographer at the Beit Hanoun wedding that the Executive Force busted up earlier this month (see video below). Rory McCarthy had a good account of the increasingly sinister shade of Hamas rule in the Guardian last week.
In addition to Fatah, I spoke with members of the PFLP and Hezb al Shaab (old communists) who were both very critical of Hamas’ heavy handed rule so far. Even Islamic Jihad issued a statement urging Hamas to stop making political arrests and to stop restrictions on freedom of speech.
INDIVIDUAL MISTAKES, NOT HAMAS POLICY
Zahar said the wedding was a rallying point for Fatah militants plotting against Hamas. The whole thing was a publicity stunt designed to embarrass Hamas, he said.
“They put a camera up and stole a gun from a police man. The Executive Force went after them, to take the gun and arrest them… it was a fabricated story in order to give the impression that there is no law.”
Hamas busted up two weddings that same night. A couple weeks earlier they also busted up an Islamic Jihad wedding, killing at least one person and wounding a handful.
“I don’t deny there are some violations but this is not a policy. It’s personal excesses,” said Zahar.
“We are doing everything in Gaza with less than 5,000 security forces. They are under big pressure, and sometimes they resort to violence when they shouldn’t, but it is not a policy. Many have been punished and dismissed.”
Mahmoud Abu Rahma, from Gaza’s Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, said this to me about the Executive Force: “This is a new kind of force. They don’t have experience working according to the law. They don’t know due process. But this behavior, this abusive treatment, the beating of detainees, this seems like a systematic trend.”
Al Mezan says, that the most conservative estimate of the number of political detentions since Hamas took over is 200. The vast majority were held for a few hours, or at most a couple of days, and released.
DISSIDENT WEDDINGS
Weddings have become an integral part of Fatah’s reorganization strategy in Gaza, a PFLP official in Beit Hanoun told me.
“If Fatah makes a march anywhere in Gaza they will be attacked by the Executive force, but using wedding they thought it would be much less risky and you can accomplish the same purpose,” the official said.
“The goal is to rally Fatah, show the people that Fatah is still present, to reconnect the Fatah rank and file. In case they are needed later on they know who they have and who they don’t.”
Turnout at Fatah weddings has swelled since Hamas’ takeover. Pictures of Hamas bete noire Dahlan and Samih Madhoun were on display at the busted up Beit Hanoun wedding for example. They were singing songs lionizing Madhoun as an “earthquake” one attendee told me.
ZAHAR WARNS OF WWIV
Zahar went on about the inevitability of Islamic rule in Gaza, the West Bank and across the Arab world.
“We believe that this is the era of change, that the coming decades will see Islamic rule in Arab countries,” he said. “I am not speaking about hopes here. I am just reading the reality. Today, even the thief, before he commits his crime, asks god to help him.”
“In a few years [Islam] can gather supreme power in the form of money, power, armies, human beings… from Morocco to Indonesia.”
“How are we going to manage the relationship between the West and Islam? If we are going to see each other as enemies we will see world war IV.”
PEACE PROCESS… HA!
I asked him about the reported peace talks between Olmert and Abbas and the upcoming US-backed peace conference. I put specifics on the table. What would Hamas say to 95% of the West Bank, with a comparable land swap in the Negev or east of Gaza, Palestinian sovereignty over the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, and shared sovereignty over Al Aqsa. He wouldn’t say.
“At that time, then we will answer,” he said.
But he did take on some of the general themes. Regarding a land swap, he joked: “What are they going to do? Trade Al Aqsa for some desert?”
Regarding talk of a tunnel connecting the West Bank and Gaza: “Any foolish man can put a bomb in a tunnel.”
Regarding the peace conference this Fall: “Ha! It will be a meeting not a conference.”
Regarding Abbas threat to call early elections: Another “Ha! How? Without a national agreement it isn’t possible to hold elections even in the West Bank.”
Qassam Rockets vs suicide bombings
I asked him why Hamas chose to stop suicide bombings two years ago. The conventional wisdom holds that Hamas gave up suicide attacks because they made a decision to run in the 2006 elections and participate in Palestinian politics as a legitimate political party. I have also heard, though never from Hamas itself, that the movement feared the tough Israeli countermeasures such as the wall and the roadblocks would cause a popular backlash against the movement.
Zahar said it was simply a tactical decision that rockets were a more effective way to disrupt Israeli society.
“You are now a military advisor for Hamas, which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot?” I didn’t answer. He did.
“Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Isrealis that their occupation is costing them too much.”
“We are succeeding with the rockets,” he said. “We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.”
Of course, that’s nonsense. Suicide attacks were a far more devastating weapon than Qassam rockets. And besides, Hamas has largely refrained from firing rockets at Israel over the past couple of years, with a few notable exceptions. Zahar doesn’t want to concede that Hamas has given up the tactic, because it would be either an admission they made a tactical mistake, or an admission that Israel’s countermeasures adequately cowed them. Renouncing violence is one of Hamas’ most powerful cards, and it’s not going to squander it now, even if, by its actions, it largely has ceased violence.
Dr. Zahar welcomes “all Jews everywhere”
Zahar, an Ain Shams University trained surgeon, fell back on his medical background to explain the folly of Israel. He made a generous offer in the process: “all Jews everywhere” would be welcome in Hamas-ruled Palestine.
“Israel is a foreign body. The problem is not that they are Jews, or Christians, or secular. It’s because they are non-native. When we transplant a healthy kidney to an ill man, the body will reject it because it is non-self. We have to use anti-immunity suppressants to make the new body receive the transplanted kidney. Today, America and the West are the anti-immunity suppressants for Israel.”
“We are ready to open Palestine for all Jews everywhere. We are ready to accept them to live with us with full rights, but as citizens and not as an occupying power.”
21 responses so far ↓
1 yaacov // Aug 21, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Interesting, informative - and depressing.
2 Rattling The Kettle // Aug 21, 2007 at 8:03 pm
What was that you were saying a few weeks ago about Hamas imposing “law and order” in Gaza?
3 Lewis // Aug 21, 2007 at 9:07 pm
He made a generous offer in the process: “all Jews everywhere” would be welcome in Hamas-ruled Palestine.
Yes, very generous: give us your entire country, and we give nothing in return except we won’t expel you. Oh, and until then, we fight.
He also stipulates it would have to be a Hamas-ruled, no pesky freedom of choice. So, taking that away as well.
Nothing unexpected of course. If we’re lucky not representative of what the higher-ups might be willing to compromise to. Too bad many are swallowing this rhetoric whole, which makes it harder for compromises to gain support.
4 Kebz // Aug 21, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Better than ‘we take your entire country and then expel you’ kind of generosity which the zionists practice. No pesky freedom from occupation for either Gaza or the West Bank.
5 Lewis // Aug 21, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Kebz, you’re ignorant. Palestinians who stayed in Israel were given citizenship. Those who left were not expelled.
The West Bank and Gaza were were only occupied after the surrounding nations repeatedly attacked and threatened Israel. For a long time now Israel has been negotiating with Palestinians to give a Palestinian government more freedom and authority. Palestinians currently can choose between Hamas and Fatah.
Now look carefully at what Zahar is saying: no Israel at all, no choice about the government, only Hamas controlling everything. He wants all the land, all the power, and to heck with even Palestinians who disagree with him.
6 Medical Metaphors « El Nuevo Pantano // Aug 21, 2007 at 11:18 pm
[…] Medical Metaphors In a previous post I tried to argue in favour of the possible benefits of talking to terrorist groups, including Hamas. In general, I’d stick that to position. However, when I read stuff like this, Israel is a foreign body. The problem is not that they are Jews, or Christians, or secular. It’s because they are non-native. When we transplant a healthy kidney to an ill man, the body will reject it because it is non-self. We have to use anti-immunity suppressants to make the new body receive the transplanted kidney. Today, America and the West are the anti-immunity suppressants for Israel. from Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas´s ex-Foreign Minister, I really wonder what the point would be. What could he possibly say to the government of Israel and what could they possibly say to him? “Go back to where you came from.” “No. We belong here as much as you do” That would be about it. And whenever politicians resort to medical metaphors I start to get a bit worried. It reminds me of the language used by the military dictatorship here: the cancer of Marxism, the cancer of subversion and similar phrases. The full interview with Zahar is here. […]
7 Edie // Aug 22, 2007 at 3:00 am
Note:
Latest example of Israel’s treatment of it’s citizens - uh - Arab citizens.
The Right to ‘Discriminate’ by Richard Silverstein
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_silverstein/2007/07/the_right_to_discriminate.html
“Last week, the Israeli Knesset passed, on first reading, the Jewish National Fund bill which allows the JNF to refuse to lease land to Arab citizens.”
8 Don Cox // Aug 22, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“Today, even the thief, before he commits his crime, asks God to help him.”___And the murderer, too.
9 Kebz // Aug 22, 2007 at 7:59 pm
To deny that ethnic cleansing took place is extremely ignorant. Read Benny Morris and or one of the original architects of Israel. To deny that whole villages were cleansed and evicted by force is ignorant. As Edie points out, the arab citizens are not exactly treated equitably either nor does the zionist claim to all of Judea and Samaria quite fit with your idealised view. You want no Palestine at all, they want no Israel. You actually misquote Zahar. He did not say that Hamas SHOULD have the power but said that Jews would be welcome in a Hamas-controlled Palestine. Not the same thing except for those who deliberately play word games to portray Hamas as ‘evil’ at every opportunity. In fact what they claim they want is an equitable state where both jews and arabs can live together equally. That isn’t a bad thing and is much preferable to a racist zionist state. If it is equitable then democracy will determine who rules it, not Hamas. Hamas has committed itself to democracy, it is just a shame that the two-faced will not accept democracy when they don’t like the result.
10 tsedek // Aug 22, 2007 at 9:07 pm
hmmm… so because some revisionists claim something that means it’s true? strange…… because there are a few hundred thousand people claiming the opposite. but, of course, they are ‘naive, stupid, filled with propaganda’ etc. etc.. they, like many of those revisionists fill their bank accounts with provocative baseless statement and are not people that have told their children of their experiences without any political ‘target’ in mind….
anyway, kezb, you’re wrong:
“You want no Palestine at all, they want no Israel.”
more than three-quarters of the israeli’s want a palestinian state but ONLY NEXT to israel…. and not, like those palestinian organizations ike hamas who like power more than a home, all for themselves….
11 Kebz // Aug 23, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Bald assertions without proof are meaningless. There is no evidence that Hamas likes power more than a home. In fact the evidence points to the opposite. They have called for negotiations with Fatah repeatedly and been rebuffed. The same goes for Israel. Three quarters of Israelis may want a palestinian state but they have elected a government that is preventing it. The Israeli establishment is preventing it. So it is you who is wrong.
12 Lewis // Aug 24, 2007 at 3:57 am
You want no Palestine at all
Who are you talking to? Me? I want a Palestine. Who says I don’t? The difference is, Zahar doesn’t want an Israel. I want both. BTW, I’m not Israeli or Jewish, but I’m sure you’re assuming I am.
Hamas has committed itself to democracy, it is just a shame that the two-faced will not accept democracy when they don’t like the result.
Just because someone gets elected in one nation doesn’t mean people in a second nation have to like them. *They* didn’t elect them. In any case, it remains to be seen whether Hamas will tolerate a real opposition party in the future, which will determine whether or not it’s a true democracy. If that’s what you want.
To deny that whole villages were cleansed and evicted by force is ignorant.
Are you claiming that ALL Palestinians were evicted forcibly? Or even most of them? Because that would be incorrect.
13 tsedek // Aug 24, 2007 at 8:14 am
No Kebz, you are wrong. It doesn’t help to wringle oneself in all kinds of complicated explanations. The truth is very square:
three quarters of the israelis want a palestinian independent state near them while
NONE of the hamas wants Israel to exist.
You can deny that, but the Hamas is saying this themselves, so you can ignore them but people won’t look at what you’re trying to sell but at the Hamas itself.
14 Kebz // Aug 24, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Tsedek. I’m afraid they don’t. You can deny it till you are blue in the face, but they are on public record as accepting a two-state solution based upon a permanent ceasefire (Hudna) and the 1967 boundaries. The only claim over the whole of Palestine you can point to is the article in the charter than Israelis point to but that is simply a historical document superceded by many pronouncement by senior Hamas officials. So to say that none of the Hamas want Israel to exist is no more true than saying Israel does not want the arabs in Israel to exist. Both parties would rather that the other disappear but recognise that in practice it will not happen.
BTW Lewis, I didnt assume anything of the sort. You take the position of a typical american. I didn’t claim that ALL palestinians were cleansed, anywhere did I? That would be absurd, but you now appear to accept that cleansing did occur on a large scale.
Israel not liking who the Palestinians elect is totally irrelevant. I may not like George Bush but it does not give me the right to bomb or occupy the USA or insist that only the democrats are the acceptable party. The USA may not like the Mexican government but they do not have right to impose their own government or disregard the one the mexicans have actually elected democratically. You may not like your neighbour but you do not have right to go around and bash them around the head.
Like I said, you can claim that Hamas do not want Israel but they are on RECORD as accepting a two state solution. If you want a Palestine, you need to talk to Hamas not ignore them.
15 Peter H // Aug 25, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Hamas’ popularity is a direct function of the brutality of Israel’s occupation. If Israel is successful in weakening Hamas, then Hamas will just be supplanted by groups that are even more radical, violent, & uncontrollable.
16 shual [weekend-automat] // Aug 25, 2007 at 4:07 pm
“Hamas’ popularity is a direct function of the brutality of Israel’s occupation.”,
There once was a popularity of Hamas
But only Hamsniks tried to amass
The Gazans were all swoon,
Cause they undestood soon,
That Hamas-Islamic-State is for the ass.
17 Michael // Aug 30, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Zahar “speaks” about land, borders, which is a discussion of politics. But what is really the subtext is ideology. The truth is that the Islamist requires the submission of the nonbeliever to Islam. All the rest is deceit.
18 Political Mavens » Who Will Stand Against Terrorism? // Mar 9, 2008 at 1:58 am
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19 Who Will Stand Against Terrorism, Since The USA Won’t?* « PA Pundits // Mar 11, 2008 at 8:10 am
[…] The best hope to alleviate the suffering of Palestinians is to stand against the cycle of violence, not to be complicit in its continuation. That requires a loud and persistent call from American Muslims for Hamas to stop deliberately inciting Israel. That incitement is not the biased perspective of those of us who oppose terrorism, but of former Hamas foreign minister Mahmoud Zahar: […]
20 Who Will Stand Against Terrorism, Since The USA Won’t?* : “7.62mm Justice” ™ // Mar 11, 2008 at 9:28 am
[…] The best hope to alleviate the suffering of Palestinians is to stand against the cycle of violence, not to be complicit in its continuation. That requires a loud and persistent call from American Muslims for Hamas to stop deliberately inciting Israel. That incitement is not the biased perspective of those of us who oppose terrorism, but of former Hamas foreign minister Mahmoud Zahar: […]
21 Israeli Tragedy: Who Will Stand Against Terrorism? - Hirams Travels Masonic Forums // Mar 12, 2008 at 12:22 pm
[…] the biased perspective of those of us who oppose terrorism, but of former Hamas foreign minister Mahmoud Zahar: Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government […]
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